Talk:Manuel
It apears that Manuel has had access to the beacon and activated it upon himself. There is subtle hints that make it entirely plausable for example -his fear and forshadowing of the age of humanity ending -Liara T'Soni saying that the Beacon would destroy a lesser mind Any other proof you can think of to support this theory? I wont add it to Dr. Manuel's page enless I can get someone elses opinion. TheSpam 19:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC) Never occured to me, but it sounds plausible... --shurlogg 21:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC) It's also possible that too much medication is messing with his head. Trust me, the wrong dosage of a psych med can really mess with you.--HighTime 18:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC) My theories are: - Since it wouldn't seem to mean anything to a new player, it could just be a kind of Easter Egg by the developers. - Manuel could have activated the beacon, hence his insanity (as Liara T'Soni claims that the beason could destroy a mind less potent than Shepard's). Then again, how could he have possibly understood what the message meant without the other beacon (from Virmire) and an asari to help? - As the above user stated, the medication given to him by Dr. Warren could be affecting him in this way. Also remember that he doesn't have to have seen the beacon or know about the Reapers / Prothean extinction to believe that the world is coming to an end. In my opinion, it isn't really worth mentioning this in the article as we don't know for certain which it is, or whether he could even understand the message if he had seen it. So leave it out, it's worthless. EliTe X HeRo 21:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC) :Maybe he's just psychic. :) --Tullis 20:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC) An excellent point, but where's the fun in that?--HighTime 21:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC) :Well, maybe it isn't that far-fetched. Sovereign was on Eden Prime, so the indoctrination aura could have affected Manuel and perhaps spread knowledge to him of the Reapers and the extinction cycle. It's unlikely, though, and still probably not worth mentioning in the article since we don't know for sure. EliTe X HeRo 21:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC) As he is the only other known person (apart from Shepard and Saren) to possibly have any contact with the beacon, and given the words he says, my theory is this: we don't know what happens to minds too weak to cope with the information downloaded into it. It could be that they do get more understanding of it than people who can cope, but their minds snap because of it. I suppose the only way we'll know is if someone knows a BioWare e-mail address. Anyone? --Thejadefalcon 11:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC) :Hmm. Guess I really prefer it to be one of those "unanswered questions..." --Tullis 17:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC) No, I think that Manuel had definitely activated the beacon. Shepard only seemed to be knocked out by the blast and Saren didn’t seem to be affected at all. Therefore, if Manuel accidentally activated and used the beacon just before the attack, no-one would know. But listen to his lines: “Agents of the destroyers. Bringers of darkness. Heralds of our extinction.” “We have unearthed the heart of evil. Awakened the beast. Unleashed the darkness.” “Is it madness to see the future? To see the destruction rushing towards us? To understand that there is no escape? No hope?” “You can’t stop it. Nobody can stop it. Night is falling. The darkness of eternity.” “Our extinction is inevitable.” Most of those are far more compatible with what we know of the Reapers than the geth (can I just proclaim my love for BioWare for not capitalising race names? It’s always bugged me that humans are the only race that don’t get capitalised in sci-fi unless they’re called ‘Terrans’). Also, the beacon was already active when Saren got to it. While, yes, the whole thing is still up to debate and personal opinion, I think that this weighs it at least slightly more in the favour of ‘did activate the beacon’ rather than ‘did not activate beacon’. But then, that’s my opinion. --Thejadefalcon 11:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC) I agree with Thejadefalcon; the things Manuel says are just too unusual and accurate to be the random ravings of a lunatic. His acute despair/hopelessness mirrors Saren's assessment of the situation, as well. He does seem to have more insight than he should, however; I would like to know how he knows Saren's role as "the prophet" since that is not addressed in the beacon vision at all, and he understands the true scope and magnitude of the Reaper threat well before Shepard was able to put the pieces together. Maybe his medication did help his understanding of the situation, or maybe going slightly insane brought down some barriers. Anyways, I personally think it's worth adding to his page as a possible explanation for why his foreshadowing is so accurate. --Redshift87 13:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC) :Well, from the lines quoted above, I'd be more tempted to say he was affected by Sovereign's indoctrination than from using the beacon. I know he was never on the ship, but maybe "that awful noise" has a stronger effect on those who are psychologically unstable? --Tullis 14:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC) ::That's entirely possible, I suppose. It might explain how he knew about Saren's role as the "prophet"; perhaps that's some propaganda that goes along with the indoctrination. I kind of thought indoctrinated were completely listless/passive when not receiving direct orders or stimuli from Sovereign, though- and Manuel certainly doesn't fit that bill. I wish one of the devs could enlighten us. --Redshift87 17:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC) :::I didn't mean he was fully indoctrinated, but maybe the broadcast from Sovereign affected him more than, say, the farmers who heard it too. He wasn't really exposed long enough to be indoctrinated (that takes about a week, according to Rana Thanoptis). It's the best explanation I can think of, given the data. I don't think using the beacon would make him say things like "our extinction is inevitable"; that sounds like Sovereign's 'propaganda', as you said. --Tullis 19:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC) Maybe he was exposed to beacon then was slightly indoctrinated so it made more sense to him? 05:45, 24 July 2009 (UTC)voila Not sure about the 'used the beacon' theory - I've always read that Saren or the Geth turned it on, possibly with the aid of Sovereign's knowledge of Prothean tech. We also know that Saren made planetfall before the Geth invasion. He has tubing sticking out of him and metal all along the lower jawline even this early on, so it is reasonable to assume that Sovereign 'improved' him. What Saren was up to planetside so early on is something of a mystery; however, perhaps the most convincing explanation is simply that Manuel (already a bit 'unstable') hid in terror at a new face and overheard Saren's plans for the attack. Frozen in place, Manuel returned to hide at the earliest opportunity - perhaps running minutes before the attack began - and picked up all this information in this way. His colleagues, knowing his reputation, thought nothing of it until the attack which they did not survive. No loose ends. While the other scientist with him could well have met up with him during or after the attack; therefore, no discrepancy, she thought he was raving about the attack rather than what he witnessed prior to it. No dodgy beacon or indoctrination needed, there's a convincing explanation right there. -- 18:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC) :I just figured that Saren's look was BioWare not having enough time to create a second skin for him. After all, surely the Council would think 'aren't you a bit more robotic than the last time we saw you?' and get suspicious? -- 11:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC) ::There is always the possibility that his appearance is nothing new, he found Sovereign years before. --silverstrike 11:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC) Appearance in Mass Effect 2 So, correct me if I'm wrong: The doctor featured in the Firewalker missions is Manuel? If so, a note of this ought to be made on his page. Bakageta-Koto 14:37, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Not only should a note be made, but the page should possibly be changed from just "Manuel" to "Dr. Manuel Cayce."Stephen Lea Sheppard 22:05, March 26, 2010 (UTC) : Not unless there's concrete proof that it is, indeed, the same Manuel. CipherCero 17:44, March 27, 2010 (UTC) The way obsesses over Eden Prime and make sure that doesn't happen again convinced me that it's the same Manuel. I don't know if it's the same voice actor but his tone seems to be a dead give away that it's the same character. Jedted 08:31, March 29, 2010 (UTC) You want concrete proof?? Try this: His instability (which he shares with the character in ME1 with the exact same name) grows stronger when he talks about Eden Prime. He connects the Prothean relic to the battle of Eden Prime as the singular cause, even though, as a cerberus operative, he should know better. Did I mention his mental instability? Oh, yeah, and, uh, same voice actor, if I'm not mistaken. Characters from ME1 pop up all the time in ME2. You can barely go two steps on a hub world without getting a reminder of your past. Why wouldn't Bioware bring Manuel back? Look, if we're going to be stubborn about this, at least make a note that it's possible they are the same, ay? ~~ :We never knew Manuel's last name and unless there is some more concete proof it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. As for his character traits, those could be applied to anyone. Cerberus was no doubt shaken up by the events in ME and probably has been obsessing about Eden Prime since the attack. Lancer1289 21:09, April 8, 2010 (UTC) Do these fellows look the same, can we get a screen of both of them, if they have a 99% similiar facial structure, skin tone, hairstyle, then there shouldnt be any doubt, lets ahndle this like civilized people folks, if you cant find concrete proof that they are teh same person, find concrete proof that they are different. ralok 21:13, April 8, 2010 (UTC) : That's the problem, there is no picture of Dr. manuel in ME2, just voice acting. Steve the wraith 18:17, April 9, 2010 (UTC) is the voice the same, is it similiar? ralok 18:28, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :They sound similiar but then so do a lot of characters after a while, especially the minor characters. My opinion is they aren't the same and Manuel doesn't appear in ME2. Come to think of it was Manuel his first or last name, we don't even know that. Doctors sometimes go by their first or last name so there is another problem. Lancer1289 18:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :Just to add what I already said, everyone calls Anderson and Udina by their last names, and it is done many times in society where a last name is used instead for whatever reasons. So was Manuel his first or last name. While I will admit that is ti probably his first, we just can't rule that out. Lancer1289 18:36, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :Here's something else, on the Citadel, a news report (That I can't link to besause It's not on Youtube, I just heard it randomly) refers to the Firewalker scientists, and says "Dr. Cayce Manuel of Eden Prime." Again, i have no proof of this other than my word, yet. But consider the posibilities of 2 Dr. manuels with mental instabilities being present on and surviving Eden Prime. Not too good odds. Steve the wraith 17:37, June 4, 2010 (UTC) I don't see any reason they'd name a somewhat unstable doctor who obsesses over Eden Prime 'Manuel' and not intend for him to be the same person as this character. JakePT 07:56, June 28, 2010 (UTC) :This is just ridiculous. Both have the same name, both are doctors who study Prothean artefacts, both were on Eden Prime, both are mentally unstable, and both have the exact same voice. A distinct voice, too, unlike the loads of NPCs with similar voices. To pretend they aren't the same person is like refusing to accept that the Emily Wong you see on the Citadel is the same Emily Wong that you met in ME1. The game never outright states they're the same person HURRR. Maybe the Executive Pallin in this unused dialogue isn't the same Pallin as the one you met in ME1? You never see his face! We can't say the Wrex on Tuchanka isn't ME1-Wrex's twin brother, either. After all, he never says the exact (and I refuse to accept anything but these exact words) quote "I am the same Wrex that you met in the previous game." :If a fruit looks, smells, tastes and has the same size as an apple, and is also called Apple, then it's pretty damn safe to assume it's an apple. Mehbah 22:40, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::But your analogy is false. Something can look, smell, and taste like an apple, be the same size as an apple, be called an apple, and still not be the same as another item that also looks, smells, and tastes like an apple, is the same size as an apple, and is also called an apple. You may be talking about a Granny Smith, while what is actually being described is an Empire. Funny story. Manuel is a common name. It's not outside the realm of the possible to have two doctors named Manuel who exhibit mental issues and study Prothean relics. As for both being on Eden Prime, well, people who study Prothean relics would tend to gravitate towards newly discovered Prothean relics, wouldn't they? You also use an Emily Wong analogy, which is similarly specious. In this case, we know the full name and actually see the person in both games, allowing an easy correlation. Ditto for your other 'examples'. If these two men had the same name, or were both shown in-game, we could make a call. They aren't. Your silly 'analogies' don't change that fact. SpartHawg948 22:45, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::(edit conflict x2)And where is your proof that it is Manuel. So far you are using circular logic, always a faulty argument. Wrex is on Tuchanka, that isn't guessing, that's fact. As to Emily, we actually see her, so we know its the same person. We have no proof that it is the same and your argument brings nothing new to the table as you point out things that are fact and use them to back up speculation. Which is all this is. We don't know, we have no solid proof, and you have offered nothing new. Lancer1289 22:47, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::First off, SpartHawg, I love how both your wikipedia links bring me to pages about apples, and both clearly say they are apples. You just proved...nothing? So there are different kinds of apples, as if I didn't know that. Both are still apples. Now on to Manuel. ::::You say there could be two Manuels that study Prothean relics. To begin with, you're ignoring half of what makes it so completely obvious it's the same person. They have the same names. The same jobs. They both were on Eden Prime. They have the same personalities, not to mention mental instabilities which pretty much no one else in the games have. They have the same voices. Do you seriously not realize how ridiculous it is to claim they're not the same man? If this was actually reality, then yes, maybe it wouldn't be laugh worthy. But it's not. You're basically saying that Bioware sat down and created a complete clone of a memorable character from the first game. If it was just the name, I'd agree with you. But every single thing we know about the characters suggest they're the same guy. ::::Also, Lancer, maybe you didn't realize, but I was using examples to show what a joke it is to claim they're not the same guy. And I can use your logic to further claim that Emily Wong in the news videos isn't the one from ME1. You said the Manuels aren't the same because some voice actors do voices for multiple people. Essentially, that it's a coincidence that both Manuels sound exactly alike, even though it's a clearly distinct voice. Well, by that logic you can't claim the Emily Wongs are the same, either. After all, the face editor has limitations! They're Emilies who are reporters on the Citadel who look and sound alike. After all, if you can claim that the identical Emanuels aren't the same even though their voices are the same, how can you say the identical Emilies are the same just because they have the same faces? There are lots and lots of people out there who look the same. So, let me ask you: Where's your proof? Do you have footage of her saying, clearly, that she is the same Emily that you met? No? Then why the HELL are you demanding me to come up with that kind of proof for Emanuel? Of course there isn't proof; you keep trying to rationalize it away! "Bioware created an identical character, thus you can't claim they're the same." And that logic can be applied to every single returning character that doesn't outright state they met you back in ME1. Just claim everything is a coincidence and that it can't be proved. That we're even having this debate is insane. If I'm coming off as an ass, it's because I think this whole thing is ridiculous and that you're acting like the turian council member regarding Reapers. Mehbah 23:51, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::Okay then, let's go ahead and settle this, overlooking the dismissal of the apple analogy (my point was that apple can refer to any number of apples, much as Manuel can refer to any number of people named Manuel, a concept apparently too advanced for this discussion). We can settle this definitively right here, right now. Supply evidence that Manuel (the character this page is about) has the last name Cayce. If you can't, then any attempt to claim they are one and the same, based on whatever supporting evidence you wish to cite, is extrapolation not supported by the canon data, and cannot be taken as fact. It can be noted as possible or likely that they are one and the same, but not noted as fact. For someone as clever as you, finding irrefutable canon proof not based on your own opinions should be easy, right? SpartHawg948 23:56, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I have to say that even noting it may lead to even more problems as people change it to fact. I really don't support noting it until we have some evidence. Also we don't again know if Manuel was his first or last name. Again I really don't think we shoud note this until we have some more eveidence. Right now all we have is speculation and one thing, the news story about the name don't have Manuel's full name, and saying that its his first is speucaltion. I don't the idea of noting it until we have more solid evidence to draw a link. Lancer1289 00:04, August 21, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Lancer brings up an excellent point. Beyond excellent, in fact. More like phenomenal. Why assume Manuel is this guy's first name? After all, according to subtitles he's Dr. Manuel. And the woman he's with? Dr. Warren. Now, how often do you come across women with the first name Warren? I know that the next time I do will be the first. So, either Manuel and Warren are both last names, or for some inexplicable reason, BioWare decided to use two different naming standards for a couple of characters you meet at the same time. Hmmm... SpartHawg948 00:17, August 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Indeed I brought that up eariler in this argument, see closer to the top of this. As to my proof, I am backed up by canon information, which you aren't. You have speculation and not facts, which we do for Emily Wong and Wrex. There is no getting around the fact tht they are the same person while there is little to no evidence to say that these two people are the same. Lancer1289 00:22, August 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::For where I brought it up before, see my comment on April 9, 2010. Lancer1289 00:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::: Unused audio logs confirm it is the same person Video-- 09:41, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::This would confirm that Dr. Manuel Cayce and Manuel (or, as the YouTube video calls him for some reason, 'Miguel') are one and the same, if it had appeared in game. It didn't though. And unused audio logs are not canon, nor is any other cut content. SpartHawg948 09:49, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::That reason would be what you'd call an "error". I'd actually caught it in two of the captions, but missed the others. I've fixed it now, and changed the link here to the fixed version. Can't believe no one on the Bioware forums or Youtube ever caught those remaining mistakes (or that I didn't). If you guys ever catch anymore, drop me a line here. Didymos 11:15, September 10, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::And how would that be an error. We have a whole article for cut content from Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 2 Cut Content. There are plenty of Galactics News Storeis, even Codex entries that were cut, so how is this an error. Clearly if BioWare had wanted it in, it would be in. But it isn't so again I fail to see how is is an error. Lancer1289 12:44, September 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm referring to my mistakenly calling him Miguel in two of the captions in the video, which I corrected and posted a new version of. You know: what the entry I was directly responding to mentioned and what I explicitly referred to as something I''' missed? I didn't even mention Bioware, except as owners of their forum. Anyway.... ::::::::::::Yeah, the 'error' bit was clearly in reference to my statement regarding "Manuel (or, as the YouTube video calls him for some reason, 'Miguel')". He was explaining that the captions referring to Manuel as 'Miguel' were a simple error on his part. SpartHawg948 21:18, September 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Well at least this issue can finally be put to rest. And just to reiterate it, since it is CUT content, it isn't canon information. Lancer1289 16:51, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Oh, there was a whole discussion about it on the talk page. Now I feel really foolish. :P -- Dammej (talk) 16:56, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah a discussion that started when Firewalker came out. It can be put to rest now, thankfully, but we still can't change the article name because the only way we find out Manuel's full name is with those cut audio files, and without them, we have no valid, i.e. canon, proof that Manuel appeared in Mass Effect 2. It's like evidence in court being tossed for some reason, and this same concept applies here with non-canon. i.e. cut content. Lancer1289 17:02, September 5, 2010 (UTC) Sorry to revive the topic of Manuel and Dr. Manuel Cayce being the same person, but I've found something in Mass Effect 3 that could tip the balance in favor of them being the same person. SpartHawg948 said this: Lancer brings up an excellent point. Beyond excellent, in fact. More like phenomenal. Why assume Manuel is this guy's first name? After all, according to subtitles he's Dr. Manuel. And the woman he's with? Dr. Warren. Now, how often do you come across women with the first name Warren? I know that the next time I do will be the first. So, either Manuel and Warren are both last names, or for some inexplicable reason, BioWare decided to use two different naming standards for a couple of characters you meet at the same time. Hmmm... However, it seems that Bioware does use different naming schemes for people. When Liara is named formally by an NPC, they call her ''Dr. T'Soni''. However, Dr. Eva Coré is called simply ''Dr. Eva'''''.